VS Blog: Maestro vs Superman (Kingdom Come)
“There will be no conquerors and no conquests, but only the charred bones of the dead on and uninhabited planet.” – William L. Shirer
While the idea of superhumans might be a cause for the end of the world, many times we ourselves as humans instead are more likely to bring the end than we think. The in-fighting we have with one another as a species bring across a conflict greater than any planet-devouring monster or interstellar smasher, one which can destroy everything we’ve built across the billions of years.
In the wake of nuclear fallout, the superhumans who once protected our planet might just be strong enough to take the fallout– and we’ll have to deal with the consequences of our own destruction. For it was the average man that caused the world’s downfall, not the superhumans we were once fearful of. Between these two invulnerable, older, and much less wiser iterations of the most powerful superheroes… one of these was able to power through his want of revenge on humanity, and the other succumbed to his vengeance entirely.
Maestro, Marvel’s Hulk of the future and the King of Dystopia.
Superman, the elder hero from DC’s Kingdom Come Elseworld.
Only raw strength can decide the victor, as Gamma mutant fist meets Kryptonite skin in this dystopian future clash. Will Maestro rule over what remains of Superman’s Justice League, or will he Come and meet the fall of his Kingdom? We’ll figure that out today on Valve’s Versus!
Before We Begin…
For this blog, we’ll be looking at Maestro from Earth-9200, a future timeline turned into a converged universe where Hulk became a future ruler of the Earth after the nuclear fallout. We will be referencing events where it crosses over with other parts of the world (such as when the Exiles team travelled to Earth-9200), and the story itself in a general vacuum as Maestro’s self-titled stories from 2010 to 2022 (self-titled, War and Pax, and World War M) are all prequels of his original Hulk: Future Imperfect storyline. This will not be covering the version of Maestro others might recognize from the Old Man Logan storyline as he is not the same version, nor will we be covering the version of Maestro from Contest of Champions as they are also not within the timeline of events from Maestro’s first self-titled comic series to Future Imperfect.
Similarly, we will be looking at Superman from Earth-22/96, a future timeline turned into a converged universe where Superman deals with a new age of villains and the fallout of superhuman society in this era. We will be referencing the semi-canon sequel arc in the main Earth, as well as crossovers to Kingdom Come’s timeline. Although their inherent canonicity is questionable to the original Kingdom Come, these events are all intended to be the same Kingdom Come Superman present in the original story and Earth-22’s crossover with the main universe, thus they should be legitimate to use.
Both of these characters exist in a specific vacuum of their stories, so we will be looking at the characters very individually. Scaling will be mentioned, but later discussed in the Before the Verdict, we will be generally equalizing the metrics of their cross-scaling (others might know this as “ being Herald tier”) but still look at their individual strengths. It would be simply repeating points from other blogs to talk about feats are acceptable and unacceptable for the characters in question, and we believe it is a much more interesting stance to look at these unique stories in their own regard than solely chain scaling them to cosmology-levelling power with alternate world crossovers.
Before we begin, there are also some credits we wanted to share. We drew from these for some miscellaneous information as well as contextualization for feats and abilities presented with these characters.
Background
Maestro
“You’re fighting against the inevitable, Hulk. I'm simply the final product of natural selection. The strong survive. I'm the strongest. I survived.”
When in the process of creation, Dr. Bruce Banner when he was caught in the explosion of his own work. During this nuclear explosion, Bruce died for a moment– and in that moment, a new being was created, one known as The Hulk.
Name: The Maestro, none others!
Height: 7’6 (2.29 m)
Weight: 1150 lbs (522 kg)
An elderly version of the Hulk.
Loves ruling the world and dominance, obviously.
Way too much gamma got him insane.
This was a being of pure rage and power, one that refused to succumb to any force on Earth and could not fall permanently. As heroes became more notable with the creation of the Avengers and humanity itself developed, however, humanity became conflicted. Nuclear fallout came as humanity fought itself more than any superhero fought villains, and soon, regular humans were the cause of destroying the world. It was never the fault of any superhero, or any supervillain, or a cosmic force… It was regular people that destroyed the world.
Every superhero was dead, and those who remained could struggle to live. However, one hero remained from the remnants, and that was the Hulk. Having awakened from cryogenic freezing in a layered fictional system created by A.I.M to contain the incapacitated Hulk, he found himself amidst a ruined world caused by humanity. Wandering the world, he found other remnants of the past, before having soon found out his own friend– Rick Jones. The ancient man collected the remnants of heroes, and did not let go of history. However, Hulk understood now that it was not worth holding onto– it was humanity’s fault for this, and he wanted to find vengeance.
During this time, Hulk had found Hercules, an old partner of his who had become the “Maestro” of the wasteland. He was a ruler over his subjects, and one who loved to face combat. While they were once friends, Hulk found it easier to betray him and use assistance of a woman known as Vapor from A.I.M to kill Hercules after a sexual invitation. Through Hercules’ own trophies, though, he betrayed Vapor and killed her, too. With this betrayal, Hulk found himself more satisfied than ever– identifying himself as The Maestro.
He would take over leadership of Hercules, and even when Hercules came back from the dead through Hades’ gift, his subjects obeyed him. The only person who opposed him, beyond your typical rebel, was the man he once knew as Rick Jones. He would flee, setting off an explosion that slightly injured Hulk, and understood he’d need to fix this future. While conflict continued to happen between the remnants of the world alongside Dr. Doom, Namor, and the Apocalypse, Rick Jones worked in the background to bring a younger Hulk to modern times.
Hulk was brought into the future, and from here, he was sent after the Maestro. The Maestro himself predicted everything, however, as he attempted to emotionally manipulate the Hulk into joining his side. This clearly failed, but Maestro’s familiarity allowed him to stomp Hulk into the ground before he could ever change his mind. Even despite this literal curbstomp, though, Maestro’s loss of humanity and insanity led to Hulk pulling one final trick in the book– sending Maestro to the future. Not only was he sent to the future, but to the first gamma bomb that created him in the first place. Mind that nothing short of a ground zero could kill Maestro, and that’s exactly what Hulk did to his future self.
Yet, while Maestro was destroyed, he could not fit to permanently die. Reduced to a skeleton, his spirit still wandered around the world, and lead his past self to his corpse constantly. By feeding off his gamma energy and Hulk leaving Hell itself, he was able to resurrect his body… before being kidnapped by a bunch of Asgardian trolls. He was, however, able to still attack the Hulk through his spiritual possession of the Destroyer. Yet, the Hulk’s blood caused the Destroyer to suck up the spirit of Maestro’s younger self, causing the two to conflict with one another before Hulk’s spirit caused the Destroyer to self-destruct. In turn, Maestro was incapacitated for seemingly good, while Hulk was able to return to his body and continue to live… until the timelines may converge once again to Maestro’s future. But you’ll never know that, not before humanity blows itself to nothing once more.
Superman
“I’ve come to believe, though… That with all the power I hold, more power than any man rightfully should have… that I am the greatest danger of all.”
Sent to the Earth from a dying planet, the young Superman was adopted by two farmers, Jonathan and Martha Kent. Giving baby Kal-El the name Clark Kent, he was raised as an honest American boy who would help his parents plow the fields and support their labor. It was not until Clark Kent had moved to the big city that he would become the superhero we all know and love.
Name: Superman, Kal-El, or Clark Kent.
Age: 60s
Height: 6’3 (1.90 m)
Weight: 225 lbs (102 kg)
The Justice League’s main member and defender of the world.
Really misses his wife.
Preaches the true American values!
However, with time comes distrust, and humanity eventually conflicted with the worldview of the Justice League. The larger scale of villains brought chaos, and heroes could barely keep up with it.
When the Joker invaded the Daily Planet and flooded it with his laughing toxins, Superman was thousands of miles away across the planet. He rushes as fast as he can, while simultaneously, Lois Lane fights off the Joker with a fire extinguisher. However, the Joker is able to concuss Lois Lane and fracture her skull just as Superman enters the building. This leads to Superman’s wife to die in his arms, as she talks to him one last time about not dipping into the vengeance. He’s able to listen to those words only once, as once Joker takes his trial, he is killed by a new villain known as Magog. However, Magog wasn’t punished for his act, and Superman became unable to bear with both the public agreeing with a murderer and the loss of his wife. Thus, he disbanded from his role as Superman, and lived for the next ten years in the Fortress of Solitude.
However, Wonder Woman was able to convince him ten years later to come back to fruition, lining up with the team-up of Magog’s people during his absence, as they constructed a prison for the mass of villains that teamed up with the forces of evil alongside the recreation of the Justice League. He brings together new and old heroes as the two groups battled– alongside Batman and Lex’s own individual teams, as they clash for influence. Amidst this fight, the United Nations send multiple nukes against the superhumans, two of which are destroyed, yet one of the payloads is set free. Superman is the first to notice this and became willing to sacrifice himself, but instead, the restrained and mind-controlled Captain Marvel of Lex’s team breaks free and calls upon the power of Shazam to destroy the nuke in the air. This creates a massive explosion, killing several of the heroes present, but frees Superman who is forced to witness the death of everyone around him.
In an alternate world, the hero known as Starman uses his powers to create a blackhole attempting to close a mystical fire. This causes a warp to open between the two Earths through the villain Goth’s eruption, and drags Superman away as he took the brunt of the explosion into the main universe. The first thing he does before anything is seemingly run away, but only to save a young teenager attempting to take her life, an action that seemed to give Superman more hope than anything. He would see the lives of his old friends in this world after their witnessed death, giving him courage. This came with the reawakening of an old foe known as “Gog”, the one responsible for bestowing the power of Magog of his and other worlds, a God that creates conflict between the Justice Society of America’s members.
Superman aligns against Gog as the two sides conflict with what they want for the world. Gog’s believers in the JSA, including the newly-created Magog known as David Reid, want him to exist to bring a peaceful retribution to humanity. Inversely, the non-believers look past Gog’s efforts and know he is secretly evil. This is furthered by his true goal being revealed, in that he intends to drain and rip the planet in half by becoming powerful enough through worship. This reveals the truth even to his followers even as the JSA have everything torn away from them, and eventually the team groups together to defeat him. Through Starman’s black hole creation, they are able to behead and seal Gog away to the edge of the universe, the Source Wall. However, from here, Superman is able to be sent back to his homeworld, too.
Upon his existence, he witnesses the death of heroes once more. He becomes enraged against the nations, but only the words of a faithful preacher and the appearance of his family and friends allow him to overcome his anger. He doesn’t destroy humanity for taking lives, but understands the pain of choice, making a new life and building back Kansas.
Experience & Skill
Maestro
Maestro is an older, much wiser version of the Bruce Banner of today. He is notably intelligent, as in his first appearance he deceived Hulk into believing that he could trick him via “Maestro assuming Hulk’s regeneration was weaker than it really is”, but turned it around into an attack on Hulk via using the original weapon created by Forge intended to kill Maestro. He was able to similarly deceive Hercules after a fight for leadership by feigning his loss, allowing a surrender, and then giving Hercules the gift of love with Vapor, a woman who would turn into lethal arsenic to kill Hercules, and then in-turn betraying her when she killed Hercules. He seemingly combined both ideas of Bruce Banner and the Hulk into his personality, demonstrating both of their smarts (I.E in the creation of the Dogs of War, clones who all ride robotic dogs created all by Maestro to kill anyone in his way) and their rage. In a fight with Dr. Doom, he was able to pre-plan an attack where he would drive Dr. Doom into an abandoned building where he created a massive electromagnetic while deceiving Doom the whole time of his superiority. He is also notably knowledgeable on time travel due to his experience with it, knowledge that came from his work as Bruce Banner and reading into the works of Reed Richards.
Superman
Superman of the Kingdom Come timeline is an older, much more intolerant version of the Superman you might be familiar with. Due to his experience, he is much more accustomed to traversing the world with his super senses, and can calculate any scenario he’s faced with in his head. When Kansas was nuked by the allied nations, in a split second, Superman could calculate the explosion’s strength and how fast it took to fall. He’s acknowledged by his main self to be experienced with his powers, and an alternate Kingdom Come Superman who was influenced by Gog was depicted as a match for Superman albeit losing their fight due to the younger Superman’s creativity. He isn’t the perfect man, but he is a God, one who has been grown by the American values and knows how to stand for those rights.
Abilities
Maestro
Gamma Physiology
When the original Bruce Banner was caught in a nuclear explosion, he was hit by mysterious gamma rays which seemingly killed him. However, the gamma explosion instead created a metaphysical Green Door, one that resurrected Dr. Banner from his death. This door is responsible for what constantly brings Banner back from the dead, fueled by the hate in his heart. Maestro has returned from Hell and back as long as the original Hulk himself has, with his original death being undone by draining Banner of his own gamma energy and escaping as soon as Bruce returned with the Green Door as he does every time he dies. While we won’t be listing everything that a Gamma mutate is capable of or has done, there are a few general capabilities that Maestro is directly comparable to or has reasons fo having access to.
His past self can sense spirits naturally which is what led to Maestro calling him towards his original testing facility, and he can defend against spiritual attacks retaining his own physical strength.
His past self can drain the Gamma from other beings, and other Gamma-mutated beings have showcased absorbing energy of beings in general. While Hulk and Red Hulk have displayed high-end showings, like with Red Hulk being able to absorb the Sentry’s power, even other Gamma mutated beings like Red She-Hulk have showcased similar absorption and thus Maestro should certainly be comparable.
In Maestro’s past, although he could not naturally do it because of his exhaustion, he believed he was able to absorb the radiation present in the world and in the future he specifically absorbed radiation to grow stronger. It is therefore possible he can absorb gamma and by extension other forms of energy, although he hasn’t explicitly done so.
Adaptation and Regeneration
Like all beings of Gamma, he can regenerate and adapt to any force, such as being able to regenerate his spine if his neck is broken, although injuries can leave Maestro incapacitated for a while and needing to heal for extended periods of time. His anger can further amplify him, allowing him to overcome being knocked out against attacks meant to harm him. Regeneration is much easier when he can reattach limbs, allowing him to put back on cut-off limbs as demonstrated above from Maestro: War and Pax #3.
Resurrection
After his death via a spiritual telepathy present in the Hulk, Maestro’s dead body beckoned for Banner to return to the original bomb testing site that created him. Eventually, he radiates enough gamma energy that can melt through planes to bring down a helicopter pilot named Lance. This happens while he, Hulk, the Leader, and his father are all fighting in Hell. Once Hulk returned to the real world with his life in his hands, so did Maestro (done via absorbing enough gamma energy to restore his body). As he was gathering power, he was picked up by several Asgardian rock trolls. This lead to him being able to possess the Destroyer at the time, but via the Destroyer’s own power he is defeated via Hulk also possessing the Destroyer and making the robot self-destruct. Through the constant absorption of gamma energy, he would be able to come back from the death, which is the furthest extent his regeneration powers can go.\
Vibrations
In a fictional world, before he became Maestro, he was showcased performing the thunderclap to take others off-balance. He also performs a massive ground punch to create an earthquake that stumbles other civillians that were attacking him. Using a thunderclap, he counters Jim Hammond’s flames burning him.
Resistances
Extreme Environments: As you might guess, Maestro can survive extensive exposure to the elements. One of the most notable examples is…
Radiation: Even years after the nuclear fallout, the world still “glows in the dark” from how much deadly radiation there is, and Paradise can barely keep down its radiation levels. Maestro was pumped up by the radiation instead of being damaged by it.
Underwater Breathing: He can breathe underwater.
Potentially Pressure and Colds: He was able to swim underwater all the way to Atlantis, unaffected by any of the effects of being underwater, not just including the lack of needing to breathe.
Fire and Extreme Heats: He was surprised that Jim Hammond’s fire was burning him after he confused him for Johnny Storm, implying that Johnny’s attacks don’t usually hurt him. The Nova Flame left scorch marks after spanning a whole town.
Energy Projection: Withstands lasers that rip through his men effortlessly, not even being able to travel through his skin. In Maestro: War and Pax, pulse rifle lasers bounce off of his body.
Acid: Withstands acid being poured onto him that reduced his men to skeletons.
Superman
Kryptonian Physiology
Superman hails from the planet Krypton, a distant world that he was sent away from when the planet exploded. He was sent to Earth and was adopted by two human parents, ones which taught him the values of his humanity and love for it. However, due to his alien physiology, the yellow Sun of Earth amplifies his physical strength, granting him access to several abilities in addition.
Flight
One of Superman’s most iconic abilities is his flight, which he can use to overwhelm several enemies at once. There’s not much more to it, although it does showcase limits in that he cannot immediately cross any distance, granted the context of Lois’ death.
Heat Vision
Superman can project powerful lasers out of his eyes which can burn through metal, using it very often as a way to induce fear into those unwilling to listen to him. When he came back after defeating Gog to after his world was nuked, he was described to have welded the doors shut to the United Nations building presumably through his heat vision.
Super Senses
Superman is described as having “telescopic vision”, allowing him to look through entire countries at once just by looking in their general direction. In this same instance, Superman is referenced as having “X-ray eyes”, likely referencing how he can see through people. He can hear a cell divide, pick out a human’s scream throughout sounds, and can calculate how powerful an explosion is as well as its speed and force in seconds. He is also able to hear conversations from another room between several members of the Justice Society, and furthermore sense several instances across the area to dictate how different it was to his home world while at a standstill. Superman can also seemingly visualize and look across the entire nation in conversation and he scan conversations across an entire city mid-flight. His vision goes down to microscopic levels, which he can use to check for internal damage or effects such as cancer.
Super Suction
When he attempted to save people from the Daily Planet, including his wife, he was able to suck up all of the Joker’s gas to clear it completely.
Freezing Breath
Although he never actively showcased this power in the original Kingdom Come storyline, the Batman/Superman World’s Finest storyline showcased Superman being able to encase the all-powerful Gog in ice– although he did effortlessly break out of it.
Resistances
Extreme Environments: As a Kryptonian, Superman is resistant to most environmental conflicts that other species may run into, such as a vulnerability to heat or cold.
Underwater Breathing: Superman can breathe and talk underwater.
Space: Superman was able to fly from space to Earth in a short time frame, and can physically withstand being in deep space.
Flames: Superman can resist being set on fire without even flinching, as depicted above.
Energy Projection: Withstood the full brunt of Magog’s energy attacks which could pierce through the Joker.
Kryptonite: Unlike other Kryptonians, Kingdom Come Superman built up a resistance to Kryptonite, which allowed him to maintain his full strength in a room filled with kryptonite gas that only stung his eyes.
Equipment
Maestro
King’s Robes
While gamma-powered monsters don’t usually wear many clothes, Maestro is shown wearing royal robes when he’s in the mood. He’s got a bunch of different fits, but almost always loves to wear the most royal and regal outfits he can for a post-apocalyptic setting.
Dogs of War
Sic’ em, he says!
An army of metal dogs created by Banner in an unknown span of time (although likely months), these were perfected as weapons for the post-apocalypse Earth. They are able to crush adamantium in their jaws, and could individually briefly scuffle with a younger Hulk and keep up with him, albeit they are still much weaker. They are all piloted by clones, and will listen to any command Maestro gives– willingly attacking and killing citizens, as well as anyone who targets Maestro. Given he brings the Man of War in his rampages against enemies, and used them in his first fight, these soldiers are not necessarily outside help but rather a large part of Maestro’s ever-spreading control of the world.
Forge’s Anti-Maestro Cannon
A weapon created by Forge that was first used by rebels against Maestro during a scuffle with Hercules but thereby given to Maestro by his own ally, this weapon can tear through anything it shoots at. It was able to not just rip through Maestro when used on him, but was also lethal towards the Hulk (as implied by Maestro’s own usage) and instantly killed a resurrected Hercules when used on him. It is pretty durable too, having withstood the original explosion created by Jones in an attack against Maestro that scuffed up the gamma giant pretty badly.
Alchemax Freeze Gun
One of the Maestro’s lesser used guns. After discovering it in a dilapidated Alchemax building, he used it to freeze and shatter Vapor after she “killed” Hercules.
Superman
None notable.
Weaknesses
Maestro
While Maestro is one of the most powerful and intelligent versions of the Hulk, he is not flawless as you might expect despite how many fights he’s won in his lifetime. He is deceitful and manipulative, but is just as easy to trick in a fight once Maestro gives up every ounce of Bruce Banner’s mind to tap into the mindless rage of the Hulk.
Personal Flaws:
As a result of draining so much gamma radiation from Paradise and needing to constantly deal with it in his system, he’s become more enraged even more than his mainline self to the point of insanity. After losing everything in his life as regular Hulk as a result of the world’s destruction, it has even furthered his rage and lack of control.
One of his biggest weaknesses is his ego, although it rarely comes against him. The biggest flaw is believing that he was strong enough to lift Mjolnir, allowing his past self to take advantage of his delusion, or that he could take on the Exiles and allowing himself to be taken off guard by Hulk 2099.
He can become vulnerable to weaker enemies and getting taken out despite his power as a result of becoming blinded by rage. He has been taken advantage of in fights by heroes like Miguel O’Hara as a result, or incapacitated by Hulk 2099, or defeated by his past self, all because he stops thinking mid-combat sometimes if he’s too filled with rage and of his ego.
Vulnerabilities:
Radiation overexposure can potentially take out Maestro despite his innate resistances, although this has rarely ever happened.
His physical regeneration holds extensive limits, such as him being incapacitated by his neck being snapped by Hulk 2099 or being vaporized to a skeleton by Bruce Banner’s original gamma bomb when sent back in time to the blast. His regeneration also takes time, so while he can overtime regenerate from a spine snap or even from his skeleton given enough radiation, these are events he cannot naturally perform.
Maestro plays a huge reliance on physical strength in situations he cannot manipulate or deceive someone, although sometimes he will often intentionally lose boughts in order to take advantage of his loss to later win (Maestro #4). Despite this reliance on anger, Hercules commented that his inability to tap into a blind rage (which he could only tap into after becoming the Maestro and killing Hercules) makes him much weaker than he was before. Yet, he is just as vulnerable as he is normally, making him easy to take out as mentioned prior in his personal flaws.
Maestro has never shown a direct resistance to means of durability negation, cases like his nuts being blinked to the Moon (and not the first time his nuts have been specifically targetted by an enemy, either) showcase him being unable to fight against it, and him him being targetted by Forge’s handcannon have specifically pierced through his body effortlessly.
While he has resisted powerful weapons that can negate durability to an extent, such as acid rain or piercing lasers, a great enough or specific power that can bypass his physical strength would be good enough to end a fight. He can also struggle against more varied opponents, due to his abilities centralizing around brute force more than anything else. In Maestro: War and Pax issue #2, high-powered knockout gas created by Dr. Doom was used to achieve similar incapacitation results.
Superman
Superman is simply a tragic hero, viewing the whole world as a fragile glass sculpture he can destroy at any time. This existence makes it immensely difficult to act as a superhero, and carrying the burden of an entire world on his shoulders as well as his Kryptonian history puts a ton of pressure on his shoulders.
Personal Flaws:
Due to his strength, Superman is always willing to put him into harms way to save others. He was originally willing to tank the Kansas nuke before Captain Marvel stepped in, and will often allow others to attack him because he will only fight in self-defense.
As a result of the destruction of his homeworld, he became distrustful and highly volatile. He lashed out in an attempt to run away when he was brought to the main world when he believed he was not fit there, and constantly beat himself emotionally in his journey with the belief that he is a destroyer of worlds because every world that follows him would be destroyed.
He originally dropped the idea of Clark Kent as his identity since Lois’ death, although he has slightly overcame his trauma despite the distraught.
He believes he is unable to control his own strength, fitting further with the idea that he is a “destroyer of worlds” and wanting to keep others safe from his own wrath.
Vulnerabilities:
He is expressed to be vulnerable to magic, including Hephaestus’ sword, which can carve “electrons from an atom”.
He can be outright overpowered by great enough forces, such as with Magog’s attacks against alternate Supermen in the Kingdom Come storyline. Yet, even when he was blown up at the epicenter of a replicated Krypton explosion, the Superman who faced the explosion was merely incapacitated by the Kryptonite virus and survived the initial blast.
He is vulnerable to high frequencies, showcasing in the original Kingdom Come storyline that his ears can be bled via loud sounds, and in Batman/Superman: World’s Finest where the main Earth Superman took down an alternate Kingdom Come Superman via whistling loud enough to shatter a mountain’s cave unto him.
He is similarly vulnerable to emotional distress and has post-traumatic stress disorder, which causes him to often break into rage even against civillians and those he believes are antagonistic. He was nearly willing to brutalize one of Lex’s men and accidentally punched his alternate self because he was filled with rage as a result of the familiarity to Joker’s attack on the Daily Planet in his home universe.
Feats
Maestro
Overall
Original member of the Avengers.
Overthrew Hercules and became the Maestro of the Earth.
Has fought against the Hulk, and still came back from his first defeat at the hands of his younger self.
Described to be unmatched by any other Hulk in power, intelligence, or sheer corruption.
Has fought against the Exiles, including modern heroes like Miguel O’Hara, Hulk 2099, and Sabretooth.
Constantly deals with people trying to attack his nuts for some reason.
Power
He and Hercules are sparring partners, matching blow for blow.
However, in their later fight, Hercules easily overpowers Hulk due to him not giving into his rage. He had to exploit a partnership with Vapor in order to take out Hercules, although this works perfectly according to plan. When Hercules resurrects via Hades’ power, he is instead taken out by the same gun meant to kill Maestro.
Overpowers Captain Marvel, binding his body via his sheer strength. However, he’s sent away when he exploits the incorrect weakness of this Captain Marvel, and is constantly beat down by both 2099 Spider-Man and Captain Marvel.
Fights the Exiles, overpowering Spider-Man 2099 and Sabretooth.
(Limit) He’s incapacitated when Hulk 2099 steps in, taking Maestro off-guard and snapping his neck before he can react.
(Statement) It is stated the Rebels believe Hulk is the only one that can physically match Maestro in their time.
(Statement) It is stated that across the multiverse there is no version of Hulk more powerful, intelligent, and as corrupt as Maestro.
Speed
Easily dodges blows from the Hulk in their fight when he goes for several swings.
Took Hulk off-guard when he was trying to save people in a crushed building, snapping his neck.
(Limit) Miguel O’Hara hops over Maestro mid-charge due to him being put into a blind rage.
Durability
(Statement) Maestro was able to survive the great war that nuked the Earth, being pumped full of radiation and making it so that nothing short of ground-zero could actually kill him. Other iterations of these nukes show that they were spread in specific nations, although it’s obviously unlikely he actually survived the direct epicenter of these nukes given his fate.
Withstood being thrown around by Hulk, including into a building that shattered on top of him.
Able to withstand being stabbed by Captain America’s shield despite it cutting into him, expressing later that it was never lethal because he could never throw with enough force to harm him.
He was a sparring partner with Hercules and can withstand several hits from him, such as being thrown across the city.
Superman
Overall
One of the Justice League’s main leaders.
Has constantly saved the world from threats, such as against Gog and Magog.
Despite losing his home world, he was able to protect the heroes of another Earth from the threat of Gog and return to a better world than before.
Constantly fights off the uprising of villains in his homeworld and has left a legacy across the ages.
Convinced to save the world via the good ol’ American values after he witnessed the deaths of every superhero.
Power
(Stated) Described as being strong enough to compress coal into diamonds with his bare hands.
Alongside an alternate universe self, he compressed tons of coal around Magog in order to seal him into a diamond structure.
Alongside Power Girl and Amazing-Man, he lifted up a barge and carried it without much effort.
Trades blows with David Reid who was empowered to become Magog, easily overpowering him, and eventually forcing him to see the error of his ways via breaking his helmet and forcing him to stare at Gog.
Lifted up Gog’s body and physically placed him in the Source Wall.
In an alternate time of Earth-22, he and the main world Superman were able to overpower and beat up Gog.
He was able to physically fight with Superboy and match blow for blow.
Speed
Superman is fast enough to catch on fire in flight when he went to save the Daily Planet from Joker (1,715 m/s)
In the main universe, Jay Garrick exclaimed that Kingdom Come Superman was fast, and might be as fast as Wally West.
Intercepted lightning from Gog and deflected it, which was able to hit Jay Garrick mid-travel.
(Limit) He was unable to fly to the Daily Planet when he was across the planet, having to travel thousands of miles while they died in only seconds and thereafter being unable to save his wife Lois.
(Limit) Taken off-guard by a last-ditch effort attack from Gog, which hits him in the back and knocks him temporarily.
(Limit) He’s unable to dodge several heroes dogpiling him from all angles, having to instead overpower them and fly before they can catch up to him.
Durability
Able to fight on par with Shazam, having withstood a charge when he was off guard.
Could withstand the full brunt of Shazam’s thunder being called upon him.
He was in the blast radius of this massive explosion created by Damage.
Superman knew he could withstand the Kansas-wiping nuclear bomb that he mentally calculated the power of which had an output of several megatons, a statement further supported by the fact that he withstood the explosion while every other metahuman was vaporized by it. It is noted to have wiped out Kansas in the newspaper, and taken lives even outside of it (Up to 34.89 to 61.56 Teratons of TNT)
Superman witnessed an explosion ten times greater than the one that wiped out Kansas, said explosion is one that he could potentially survive (556.8 Gigatons of TNT). Given he can read a nuclear bomb’s yield in split-second timeframes, it is unlikely his statement is inaccurate as a multiplier.
Although Magog had incapacitated him with the explosion, an alternate Kingdom Come Superman withstood the recreated explosion of his home planet Krypton, which duplicated it down to the molecular level.
Furthermore, Magog claims would survive drifting in space for years after taking it point-blank until he succumbs to the Kryptonite attacking his body.
An alternate Kingdom Come Superman withstood the main Superman whistling loud enough to collapse a mountain’s cave on top of him.
(Limit) Although he walks it off, a last-ditch beam from Gog as he’s being sealed into the Source Wall deals notable damage to him.
Scaling
Maestro
The Hulk and Anti-Hulk
The man described as the only one able to match the Maestro physically in Earth-9200, he and Hulk are pretty physically similar and trade blows consistently. Thus, they would be comparable to eachother in strength. While it is questionable if Maestro could scale to everything Hulk does, taking the statement literal of him being one of the strongest versions of Hulk implies that he could compare to the higher-ends of Hulk’s strength especially due to his absorption of Gamma energy and (in his full rage) completely overpowering Hulk to the point of reducing him to a bloody crawling mess with Hulk needing to teleport Maestro away back in time to counter his attack.
(Limit) He was pierced by a shot from the weapon designed by Forge with the intention to use it to kill Maestro, but could still flee the area while Maestro was distracted even when he was injured.
Hulk dodged a laser from the Destroyer possessed by Maestro.
Maestro and Hulk 2099 (a possessed version, specifically) have physically scuffled before, with Maestro believed to be stronger while Hulk 2099 did take a physical upperhand in their fight via taking Maestro off guard when he was overcome by rage and snapping his neck. Therefore, they should also scale in a similar regard although taking Maestro’s statement literal would make him much stronger, especially given Hulk 2099 had to specifically attack Maestro via Forge’s weapon and planned on bodyswapping with him.
Has taken other similar explosions before, such as this one which could be seen from a panoramic shot of the city.
While possessed, he was treated as a high-power threat to the Exiles, including characters such as Blink, Sabretooth, or Miguel O’Hara. Spider-Man scaling WOOHOO!!
Superman
Kingdom Come Heroes
Superman is one of the greatest superheroes in history, and should be inherently far greater than any others of his original time.
Heroes like Starman and Doctor Fate can fly around the planet.
While Superman was injured, it was believed Flash was the only one who could move fast enough than the lightspeed Gog.
Kid Flash can cross between nations at high speeds.
Rip Hunter can step between the nanoseconds with his technology and react during it, which he believes would be enough to outspeed Gog (2.53c)
Rip Hunter can phase between atoseconds and move normally in the time between them (Up to 2,535,087,123.506c) (Debatable for Superman; See Before the Verdict)
Kingdom Come’s Magog
While the strongest version of Magog does consistently overpower Superman in other timelines, the specific Kingdom Come Superman we follow has showcased a fair share of instances where Magog is kept up with by the hero. Given that heroes like Hawkman or Power Girl could harm and throw around Magog, albeit his staff allowed him to overpower the cast of heroes eventually, it’s not unlikely for them to scale to Magog in his casual outputs of strength. David Reid was also transformed into a form of Magog, and Superman easily overpowered him, although it’s unknown if he scales exactly the same as the prior iterations of Magog despite being blessed by Gog’s power.
Magog’s staff wields the power of the Guardians of the Universe’s emerald energy, the might of Zeus and Shazam, and the cosmic power of the Source.
While torturing Captain Atom, he created a large explosion.
Stated he can lift up his arm at lightspeed to block attacks
Magog shattered Rip Hunter’s technology while he was supposedly stepping between nanoseconds to outspeed him.
Before The Verdict
Rip Hunter’s Speed
A minor feat/statement that appears in the Kingdom Come continuity, Rip Hunter’s tech is designed to allow him to traverse time in fractions of seconds. He can literally step in between the seconds, according to himself, and one instance of using this tech had him phase down to the attosecond. Mind that Magog himself has physically intercepted Rip Hunter while using his tech, who even in this fight had stated he was going to phase between nanoseconds. This is displayed as him basically becoming intangible to movement, yet Magog was able to interact with Rip Hunter, which would be more than enough proof of him intercepting the actual tech. While there isn’t much reason to scale Magog to the full speed, but it is understandable as to why one would. However, it is notable that the nanosecond end is potentially more reliable, as not only is it stated in the fight that he would phase down to that specific timeframe to steal from Magog but Magog himself is also stated to be able to move at lightspeed to block attacks in the same fight. Either way, Magog would scale to Rip Hunter performing this feat, and the end varies on what you believe in yourself.
MULTIVERSE BUSTING VERSIONS JOB TO NUKES NOW!!
As you might have seen from their feats and scaling, these two versions of Hulk and Superman are some of their most grounded iterations thanks in part to their narrative role. While the average powerscale would have these two iterations much higher than others because “Maestro withstood bombs that killed Thor, and only died from the clearly Outerversal gamma bomb because it created the Green Door” or “Superman merged Gog to the Source Wall = Outerversal”, inherently both characters act at a much lower scale than even breaking the world. This isn’t to say they aren’t scaling to their mainline selves, but in the hands of their original writers, they are looked at to be much lower than where crossing over feats would put them.
Instead, we just don’t want this blog to solely focus on long scaling chains to other superheroes. For all intents and purposes, we’ll be covering both characters under the idea that both of their high-end scaling (Maestro being compared to one of the strongest Hulks, overpowering his own younger self and generally being a more powerful Hulk who withstood the explosions that killed every hero, Kingdom Come Superman overpowering his main world self, in an alternate Earth-22 both overpowering Gog through sheer physical might, potentially even being compared to Wally West in speed) is equal.
We will still look at their individual might and how they compare to those ends or the legitimacy of the scaling rather than how powerful that scaling in itself is, given other blogs have consistently talked about the size of these cosmologies and how the two compare to one another. Hulk vs Godzilla is also notably coming up after this blog which will likely cover Hulk’s greatest showings (albeit likely not ends that Maestro is outright physically stronger than) and we did not want to fill up a blog having to talk about how these two alternate versions scale to their whole cosmology because they’re older and more powerful versions than their current selves. There are other larger blogs that have covered the scope of the cosmologies and extended scaling far greater than we are brave enough to try and comprehend, and hopefully it’s understandable for those reading.
Fan Art
(valve)
Verdict
Physicals
These two are some of the most powerful versions of their respective selves, and certainly can back it up with their strength. Maestro is one of the strongest forces in the Wasteland and can withstand anything short of a ground zero nuke, which is pretty similar to Superman’s own capability of withstanding the nukes that hit Kansas. While they do vary on screen in both cases, Superman is admittedly much more powerful because he was more than likely able to withstand the nuke, as even at a distance he was able to take practically no damage from the Kansas nuke. Comparatively, not only did Maestro need to charge himself off of the nukes to absorb their damage, but his original defeat that left him at a skeleton was outright getting hit by the G-Bomb that created Hulk at its epicenter. These are pretty huge parts of their story and background, and that alone can showcase a power difference of both.
However, you could look at it through a more cursory glance, in that both do obviously scale to their mainline selves. Maestro is, in fact, described to be one of the strongest Hulk iterations and was explicitly stronger than his younger self, while Superman has outright matched and overpowered both his main Earth self as well as characters like Superboy. You could put both in a similar scale, with Maestro when actively putting in his all overpowering Hulk, while Kingdom Come Superman has oneshot Superboy when enraged enough, although obviously Superman has a lot more merit because his power does not inherently vary. On the other hand, Maestro’s power varies due to his absorption of gamma energy and can suffer exhaustion that weakens him, and the fact he can be blinded by rage to be putting in much less effort or getting tagged by those weaker shows it’s not a consistent power level. On the other hand, when Kingdom Come Superman goes all out, he’s able to outright stumble people just as powerful as himself normally, and lacks a lot of those upper limits of power that Maestro is depicted to have.
All in all, both ends can justify different sorts of scaling. In terms of how they fit in the actual story, Kingdom Come Superman is vastly more impressive in strength, and while particular scaling chains could bring strength closer, he is still nonetheless more impressive than Maestro in power.
On the other hand, speed becomes a much more closer bout. This is where we wouldn’t blame someone for looking at similar speed ends for both, as obviously you can scale both to pretty high feats. In Maestro’s continuity in particular, he does scale to at least some sort of laser dodging with Hulk timing the Destroyer’s lasers (although this could be slightly questionable) and them being able to react to pulse rifles which shoot deflective beams, and Superman would scale to Magog who has a pretty consistent record of lightspeed statements and showings with his verbatim lightspeed reactions and reacting to Rip Hunter while he’s transparent via stepping between nanoseconds. On the other hand, with active chainscaling, both Superman and Hulk showcase similar low-ends and high-ends, although Maestro is more consistently in the speed range of Hulk while Kingdom Come Superman is depicted as more capable of hitting even his mainline self before he could react and being put in the ballpark of speedsters like Wally West. This would, similarly, net Kingdom Come Superman the advantage in stats because of his more consistent and higher-end scaling with both Rip Hunter’s nanosecond feats exceeding the relativistic-at-best Maestro feats, and his inherently faster scaling given his comparison to speedsters versus Maestro being outsped by characters like the Human Torch.
Overall, Kingdom Come Superman is more consistently on the high-end of physicality. His general narrative ends place him in the realm of a superhero invulnerable to weapons far exceeding what has taken out Maestro canonically, and feats present in their specific storylines showcase him being much more agile and faster. On the other hand, if you look at cross-scaling, Superman has more consistent high-end upscaling and even one-shots people normally comparable to him at his peak, while Maestro’s innate power varies and he’s normally only matching in his scaling rather than being much stronger like Superman, with him only matching Superman casually at Maestro’s own peak.
Arsenal and Abilities
Now that we can look past strength and speed, we’ll have to dive more into their secondary aspects. Namely, their arsenals and abilities.
As you might expect, Maestro has a much greater arsenal. The large number of cloned Dog of Wars he has, alongside several weapons like Forge’s gun and the freeze ray showcase that he already has a large enough arsenal to compensate for physical strength. The fact he can one-shot people like Hercules, who can easily overpower Maestro, does showcase a way for him to take out Superman. Plus, the massive numbers advantages gives him a lot more merit to take the fight into his favor, as Superman doesn’t struggle with numbers expressly but can still be potentially overwhelmed.
Mind that this is a pretty clear-cut advantage, as Maestro actively has technology and weaponry to bring to a fight over Superman. While this tech can be potentially destroyed, Maestro’s huge numbers advantage and Superman willingly face-tanking most attacks or being able to be caught off guard if he’s distracted does open up the Dog of Wars (a tactic Maestro will definitely want to lead with) to have a ton of merit despite being so much weaker. Clearly, Maestro takes this category in spades.
On the other hand, abilities become a more notable clash. Both Superman and Maestro don’t share many abilities, and the abilities they do showcase are not necessarily ones that would heavily impact the other.
Superman’s heat vision and frost breath are powerful tools, and his ability to use his strength in creative manners like compressing coal into diamond structures is pretty powerful. However, Maestro has depicted a high heat resistance, face-tanking a flare from Jim Hammond and being implied to feel nothing from the heat of Johnny Storm. Alongside his general resistance to extreme environments and not needing to breathe makes typical incapacitation means practically impossible with stuff like freeze breath.
On the other hand, Maestro does have some pretty clear cut advantages. While his regeneration and adaptation have obvious limits, they face limits only against certain abilities or when overwhelming Maestro. While Superman’s inherent strength advantage could overwhelm Maestro’s regeneration eventually, his ability to create disrupting thunderclaps (an explicit weakness of Superman, which has both bypassed his natural invulnerability and taken him out of a fight before by the main Superman, and general resistances to similarly powerful lasers to Superman’s usual heat vision.
His most powerful potential ability, however, is his energy absorption. While Maestro has not explicitly showcased usage, it is a power that his former self (and other Gamma mutants) have showcased. Maestro himself has even used this absorption, albeit of Gamma in particular, to potentially regenerate overtime and strengthen himself. This would become a fight down to the wire if Maestro began to absorb Superman’s energy, as this could strengthen Maestro and close the gap. However, there are potential ways for Superman to counter this, such as playing keepaway during the fight, taking out Maestro before he can absorb his power, or arguing that he might have enough reserves to last long enough in the fight. Various sources outside of the comic do mention that Superman’s resistance to Kryptonite do come from his prolonged exposure of the Sun, which could provide a great argument against Maestro sucking up Superman’s energy.
However, regardless of how you slice it, Maestro’s regeneration and adaptability are certainly helpful in a fight even against a stronger opponent. While it has blatant limits that Superman could expose, Maestro’s neck being snapped being a blatant way to bypass his durability or preventing Maestro from putting his body back together, the former has only been used by someone explicitly aware of Maestro’s weakness. Superman himself is unlikely to immediately go for lethal attacks even against the worst of opponents, often leading with punches, so he’d have to rely on getting angry enough to knock Maestro out. On the other hand, if the fight prolongs enough, Maestro could eventually realize how to end the fight. But that would need to touch on extended tertiary factors…
Tertiary Factors
Being Bruce Banner himself, Maestro is super intelligent, and not much more elaboration is needed there. Superman isn’t a slacker either, but his Kingdom Come self is much more sloppy and less capable of being aware in situations than his main self (a weakness that is constantly pointed out). Both do often go headstrong in fights when they’re pissed enough, but Maestro has depicted using situations of emotional vulnerability or deception to take the upperhand against an enemy.
With this all in mind, Maestro clearly is a more intelligent person. Superman isn’t a slacker, but does not showcase certainly as much awareness until the situation calls for it, while Maestro is almost always conniving a scheme. This is a pretty weak reason, admittedly, to take the category… but Maestro does pretty evidently have a lot more scheming behind everything his does than Superman, who does face some difficulty adapting to situations of deception despite everything he’s gone through.
Maestro is also generally more aware of non-combat applicable aspects than Superman, as while Superman showcases immense super-senses that could potentially read anything Maestro has going on in his body, Maestro does have the experience of an entire lifetime behind him and could potentially compare Superman to any of the old Avengers he worked with. Superman is potentially older than Maestro, and a much more generally wiser person, but has not showcased on his own accord any exceptional growth. He takes all situations head-on, and is most experienced taking advantage of his strength and Kryptonite physiology to save any situation.
When he struggles, Superman’s mind goes somewhere else, and he will often become a berserker. On the other hand, Maestro will often become a berserker when he is betrayed, but when a situation goes his way, he will always learn how to control it. His whole plan towards the Hulk eventually betraying him via faking his healing and assuming Maestro actually thought it was weaker was all meticulously planned out, knowing everything that those around him had gone to do. While this might have came from the prior knowledge of himself, Maestro has depicted this sort of combat awareness against people like Doctor Doom, deceiving him in a fight and putting him into an electromagnet, knowing he would fall to it. In other situations, he’s outplanned Hercules, and only struggled against the man once he suddenly rose from the dead. While Superman can push limits, it is likely that Maestro could adapt overtime. With this, Maestro will always have his head in the game, while Maestro’s brutality and usage of technology could distract Superman with his own post-traumatic stress from the Joker, while Superman would not be able to easily expose Maestro’s mental weakness of rage.
Although Maestro seems to take these two categories extensively, mind that Superman is far from a slacker. He is certainly just as intelligent, but is not inherently as disciplined as Maestro is when the situation calls for it. Maestro’s use of deceit and manipulation would allow him to far easily expose Superman’s weaknesses, not necessarily that Superman has the normal weakness of always being reminded of death and misery. Even normal attacks, such as with Lex attempting to lead another Superman to the Daily Planet, and the nature of it have reminded Superman of the death of his wife and the cruelty of the Joker. Maestro’s inherent nature as a post-apocalyptic ruler who throws away the lives of others freely and remains as the last superhero who lost everything could reopen the wounds of Kansas’ destruction, and throw Superman into an emotional spiral that Maestro could take advantage of. This isn’t to say that Superman couldn’t do the reverse against Maestro’s rage, which has allowed him to be taken out by targets way weaker than him by virtue of taking him off guard, but Maestro does not consistently demonstrate that rage clogging up how well he takes a situation unless he’s been betrayed by an ally, such as when he was shanked by the Exiles on accident which had Hulk 2099 take him out, or when he became pissed off at Hulk to where Hulk could easily overwhelm him, although he still won their fight.
Conclusion
Credit to CGMeetup for this clip.
“More than anyone in the world, when you scratch everything else away from Batman, you're left with someone who doesn't want to see anybody die.”
Advantages
Much stronger physically both in the context of their stories and in scaling.
Likely much faster than Maestro.
Flight allows him to evade several routes of combat.
Heat vision and freeze breath offer elemental diversity to potentially overwhelm Maestro’s regeneration.
Could potentially have more than enough solar energy for Maestro not to be able to suck up.
Becoming more enraged could allow him to knock Maestro out, ending the fight immediately.
Coolest Superman version ever.
Disadvantages
Unironically less able to keep his head in the fight.
Could potentially have his solar energy absorbed by Maestro, if figured out.
Likely not as intelligent as Maestro for combat, but both have similar experience.
Can be easily manipulated or deceived by Maestro in the fight
Would have to deal with Maestro’s army and him at the same time.
Forge’s gun may be able to end the fight if Clark is unlucky enough.
“Ordinary people destroyed the world, Rick! Not the Leader! Not the Red Skull! None of the despots we fought and died against! Ordinary people brought it down around their bloody ears!”
Advantages
More intelligent than Superman typically in combat.
Way greater numbers advantage and arsenal size.
More willing to manipulate and take advantage of Superman becoming overwhelmed mentally.
Forge’s gun could end the fight if Clark is unlucky enough.
Freeze gun likely would not be expected by Clark in the fight, although it wouldn’t do much.
Capable of keeping his head in the fight long enough not to succumb to his rage.
He could potentially absorb Superman’s solar energy, weakening him and strengthening Maestro to similar peaks.
Thunderclaps can distract or overstimulate Superman further.
Disadvantages
Not as capable of agility, though he has kept up with flying enemies before like Human Torch through his super jumps.
Likely much weaker, which can leave him to be one-shot.
Resistances would likely require him to be similarly powerful as Superman in order to completely make use of them.
Resurrection is basically inapplicable.
Regeneration is basically inapplicable if Superman overwhelms him with strength.
Arsenal can be easily taken out by Superman.
Between these two, you wouldn’t expect it to be as close as it is. Both have a large number of advantages under their belt, ones that could instantly end the fight if they figured out the other’s weaknesses. Maestro’s intelligence and manipulation would allow him to likely figure out and deceive Clark, especially with his experience within deception, something that Clark would naturally have trouble dealing with. Alongside his thunderclaps that can bypass Clark’s durability, it would lead to Superman becoming very overstimulated from all angles, both in his mind and physically. While this could lead to Superman immediately deciding to one-shot, Maestro inversely does have the wide enough numbers advantage to keep the fight going and might even be able to take out Superman with Forge’s gun, or potentially absorb enough attacks from Superman and even his solar energy to take Superman out of the fight.
However, Maestro has clear limits and cannot go as far as ending the fight instantly like that. These are things that Maestro would need to learn in the fight and while taking on Superman, something that he wouldn’t have immediately pop into his head compared to when he’s deceived the Hulk or Doctor Doom. His numbers advantage could allow him to play keepaway for long enough, but as shown when Superman had to face off against Superboy, a physical equal, he was able to put enough force to one-shot Superboy into a knockout. The fact that Maestro’s main advantages would rely on putting Superman in a state of anger when he is more than strong enough to take down Maestro with a punch to the skull or accidentally taking out his rage on the gamma mutant makes it pretty damn hard for Maestro to keep up.
While Maestro could eventually match Superman, the strength advantage is far too difficult for him to overcome in a realistic fight. While he holds more than enough ways to end the fight, he would likely not realize to apply these until its too late, and Superman would likely be able to take down Maestro through an easily exposable weakness like breaking his bones, ripping off more than enough limbs for Maestro to not be able to resuscitate immediately, or punching him hard enough with the force of moving a planet to take him out of the fight. The king of the wasteland put up a fight and a powerful effort, but his Kingdom Came crashing down to an Imperfect Future.
The winner is Superman.
Superman (3): Tario, Br3ndan5, valve
Maestro (0): Um... Hercules...?
Comments
Post a Comment